BELIEFS
2/1/02 8:16 PM 1 out of 67
MIKE
Thoughts become things. Does it sound too easy? Well whether or not it does, it is that easy. But unless you’re fully aware of everything you’re thinking (ah-ha!), then you’re not fully aware of everything that will soon be happening in your life… so there’s some ground work that lays ahead.

You see, day in and day out, we’re always, unavoidably thinking thoughts, and surprisingly, we’re hardly aware of what most of those thoughts are, yet as we perpetually think, so do we perpetually visualize, anticipate, expect and ultimately, manifest the life we lead. We UNCONSCIOUSLY AND EFFORTLESSLY breathe life into all of the experiences of our lives giving little, if any, attention to our thoughts and the mechanics involved, and so it should be, but what we ought to at least become aware of however, is that it’s our normal everyday wandering imagination that thinks most of our thoughts, and thus IT is what’s responsible for bringing about most of our experiences.

So the billion dollar question is this, “How can I direct the stream of my countless daily thoughts, so that they work to serve my needs and desires?”. And the billion dollar answer is… “by aligning your beliefs with the life of your dreams”. There’s an old saying that goes a little like this, “as one thinks, so shall one become”, but by taking a step back, this saying would read, “as one believes, so shall one think”. “As one believes, so shall one think.” In other words, to master your thoughts and imagination, and therefore your life and destiny, you must first master their captain, your beliefs. And by ensuring that your beliefs about reality and your place in it are in line with the dreams you have, you can rest assured that you will naturally and automatically be thinking the good thoughts, even when you’re not paying attention… which in turn will become the things and events of your life.

To begin with, what are beliefs? Well let me give you a few examples by first asking you some simple questions that can be answered with 2 or 3 descriptive words… First, what do you think of people, in general, for instance are they kind, trustworthy, good hearted, or are they shallow, fearful, naïve, lazy… whatever. OK, now, what do you think of life in general? Is it easy, hard, exciting, boring, what? And of health? Is it elusive, is it predictable, do you have it, or do you wish you did? And tell me about yourself… are you creative, stubborn, determined, carefree, disappointed… Of course no matter how you answered those questions, you just shared with me some of your beliefs, but here’s the catch… you think these are simply observations of yours about your reality and yourself, but instead, they’re the thoughts of yours that have actually created your reality. If you think life is hard, for example, it becomes hard, but it wasn’t hard to begin with, not until you started thinking it was hard, and perhaps, in the beginning, you remembered this, but over time, you no longer saw this observation as an opinion of yours, but you considered it to be a fact of life… and the belief was born.

(CONTINUED IN NEXT POST)




MIKE
2/1/02 8:17 PM		 2 out of 67

(CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST)

We have thousands of beliefs, and they’re not all bad, but they do become the de facto police officers of our thoughts. They create rules for our thoughts, and these rules are the most rigid that we live by. You see, apart from a very short list of the “Truths of Being”… like “thoughts becoming things”, that we make our own realities, that “it’s all good”, that we’re eternal “Beings of Light”, etc. there are almost no rules! We ARE limitless in virtually anyway that we can imagine… unless however, we believe otherwise, and then, we’ve got rules! The trick with beliefs, though, is that they limit, without our even knowing it, what we’re even “allowed” to think, and therefore, what we can then materialize into our lives, because they hide the fact that things could be any different. For instance, if you come to believe that life’s deepest secrets can’t, or aren’t meant, to be known by mortal minds, then not only will you not dwell on life’s meaning, blocking out new thoughts that could’ve drawn such answers to you, but your perceptions of what you do observe in life will be tunneled by your belief, zeroing you in on only evidence that supports your theory. You may even say to yourself that you’re OPEN to contradictory evidence, YET IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT COULD EXIST based on your first belief - this evidence will be squashed and rationalized on sight. Sneaky for sure, but there are ways to uncover, or deal, with your beliefs and we’ll be talking about those real soon. First though, let’s talk more about these rules, and how they operate…

Your beliefs act like filters, through which your every single thought must be sifted, but these filters, are invisible… To give you an analogy, let’s pretend beliefs are like tinted sun glasses and that your vision through those glasses represents the thoughts you view through the filters of your beliefs. Doesn’t everything look different, color wise, whey you put on those glasses? But after you have them on a while, you don’t even know you’re wearing them! In fact, it’s hard to remember what things looked like without them on, and the ONLY way to find out, is by taking them off! OK, also in this analogy, let’s imagine that everyone in the world wears sun glasses, and no 2 people have exactly the same tint, that everyone’s wearing something different, some wear blue blockers that make everything look yellow, some wear red blockers, green blockers, and billions of varieties in between. Now, does the fact that everyone is wearing different sun glasses have any effect on reality and the Truths of Being? Do these glasses have any affect on the things people see, or just how they see them? And isn’t it possible that some people will see colors, that are impossible for others to see? And isn’t it often easier to see the glasses that are worn by others, than it is to see our own? I think you get the picture… beliefs are exactly the same in all these regards, and most of the time we don’t even know we have them, which isn’t necessarily bad… because if our beliefs are in line with our dreams, they’ll serve us, but it they’re not… big problem! Fortunately, beliefs are also like sun glasses in that we don’t have to be stuck with ones we don’t like.



LUCY
2/2/02 2:03 AM		 3 out of 67

BELIF MADE LOVE TO LIFE AND DREAM WAS BORN....iT WAS SO BRIGHT EVERY ONES WEARINGnAKED SHADES.....sMiLe....jOYOUSLY...
OR BE WHATEVER YA THINKS BEST...LOL



Sammy
2/2/02 4:22 AM		 4 out of 67


Mike:

Now you're starting to talk sense ! It begs the question, of course, that if beliefs are by their nature individual, then are there any invariant features common to all people ? Yes there are and Jung, Huxley and others have done a pretty good job finding them - it's been done - only trouble is people don't take any notice of it.

Forgive that brief excursion into the academic - it's the worst of liking an intellectual overtone to everything. I have so many of these "selves" who strut on stage and then disappear. That was Professor Plum. Mr Minimax and Mr Noah Lott are the worst - too late to kill them off now - I'm too old ! If both of them appear at once my wife goes out into the garden.

Back to your last post (sounds like a military funeral !)Yes, you're quite right; it would be funny if so many people weren't leading mentally crippled and unhappy lives because of heavy psychological garbage taken on board in childhood. I thought it out for myself when in my twenties, but it's good to see somebody trying to help people be free.

By analogy, my own specific pet hobby horse in this regard is musical education - the majority of adults "bëlieve" they can't express themselves in music - "believe" they'll never be "proper" musicians and therefore have no right to even think about singing a song or playing a few chords of their own on the piano. Poppycock ! But it's so sad.

I can see exactly where you're leading and good on you for it - you're a braver man than I am for taking it on. I'll drop in from time to time.

Ted.



Eric
2/2/02 10:42 AM		 5 out of 67

so how come babies and children who have not acquired beliefs are still affected by the historical forces to which they are born?Why does newborn baby Xosa starve to death while little Poindexter have so much he becomes grossly overweight at the age of 3 months?You still have not answered the question if the world lost it's roundness because millions of people believed it was flat for centuries?



DINA
2/2/02 6:17 PM		 6 out of 67

The question is....... in the end will that fat little baby have a happy life? Or will he be so overstuffed with self-indulgence that he can't even see himself..
And will that little kid who is born into poverty and doesn 't even know it lead a richer life in the end because his riches consist of things we are too pampered to know? Who knows? Do you? Can you honestly put yourself anywhere else and guess? Can you get off your butt and go help these people you keep bringing up?
Love,
Dina



CATHY
2/2/02 7:34 PM		 7 out of 67

the world, shesa' rounda.she is also alive.a mother,father,a rain maker,a desert maker,a mountian maker,a plain maker,a rainbow maker,clouds,some insist that she's blue,some think that she's green,some even think that she has brown spots called land go figure.but what ever she is we are too.are there people with great needs in this life?yes!could the flap of a parrots wing effected the stock market crash of the depression? you better believe it.but if you do your part i'll do mine.and somewhere down the road we'll be just fine.catherine



EVITA
2/2/02 8:31 PM		 8 out of 67

Hi - to me a lot of this learning or thinking has come a lot to do with age.
As the old saying goes you can not put a old head on a young shoulders - so how many young people know what they really want in or out of life ?????? It is in older life we learn these leasons- that our thoughts can change how we fell, live, & see other people. How many youn gpeople want to even think about what they want???

We have to accept everyone as being equal does not matter what colour, cread, or looks that person has.

With all these thoughts going around the world no-one has mention the subconscious - the part of the mind that is active without one's conscious awareness.?



Eric
2/2/02 10:30 PM		 9 out of 67

D-you seem to think i am on some mother teresa trip and keep missing the point I am trying to make.If a premise is faulty it should not be followed-Mike states--"our pasts are Irrelevant,except to the extent they serve us"He also said our beliefs determine our reality"However in the case of two babies in extremely differnt situations there pasts were very relevant to the fact of their situation and they hadn't even acquired beliefs yet,being only 3 months old.Now Mike solves this by going to a yet to be proven place and says these babies made an agreement,one to starve and one to be overfed ,by changing their thoughts these babies can change this agreement they made.Fine,and yet do you deny the scientifically proven effects of malnutrition on cognitive ability?Once again baby no .1 may have some difficulty keeping up those positive visualizations ...



DINA
2/3/02 12:06 AM		 10 out of 67

No, sorry..... no mother Theresa trip there... Your negativity was just getting on my nerves...
I am not in full agreement with Mikes ideas.. I am not in full agreement with any one persons ideas at all.
No matter what you believe, or not believe... there always seems to be an exception to the rule....
I have a feeling that if Mike said that the sky was blue, you would point out that in the early morning at dawn it is actually quite a peachy color.
There is true discernment and then there is arguing for the sake or arguing. You know?
What if those less fortunate than us are an illusion created for us to see what we would do? What I am saying is WHO KNOWS?
If you think that this whole premise of what Mike has to say is worthless, and you think that there is nothing for you to gain in this discussion, then for heavens sake drop out!
I don't have anything against you, its just that it seems that you have something negative to say about
EVERYTHING, and some of us (LOL ME) would like to exchange ideas on the subject that this discussion brings up. Build up, not tear down.
You are right my opinion is only based on what you have typed in so far.... I only know what you have said... maybe you should look back at it and see where I am getting this idea about you that is so unfair....lol!
Love to you,
Dina



TEVA
2/3/02 12:40 AM		 11 out of 67

Hi from a lurker on this group. Your controversy has drug me out of the woodwork. I think Eric's remarks and inquiries are respectfully put forward. I think Mike is doing a credible job of explaining the "Truth" he has discovered, as would be expected of a pro. I further think a lot of these dialouge groups get sort of syrupy with everyone saying sweet things to one another and issues being skirted and avoided. A good dissenter in any learning situation is a blessing.IMHO



LUCY
2/3/02 3:51 PM		 12 out of 67

Catherinelorr, thats a nice poetic expression of truth. We each mave a part to play and choices to make to help create a better world for our children and our selves. There are solutions to all situations we encounter in life, How we respond to the situation says alot of how we feel we are suppost to...Sub conscious young and old minds alike {A choice} are record keepers of experience and responce...Self worth is recorded as to every word you have said about yourself or heard said by others...Does DINAs saying Eric is negative make her so, not if she doen'st internalize it as fact yet the sub-conscious records all information as fact,,,Like Damn that was stupid of me...So instead i say damn that was smart of me...even though it was stupid....lol....re-programing is effectual....Just Do it!



Charity
2/3/02 4:06 PM		 13 out of 67

I, too, love everyone's thoughts & beliefs...how else could we form our own?

I think E has a good point....another scenario could be a man in a jail cell sentenced for life....how could he believe for a yacht? or a man 5'7" wanting to be 6'4"

On the other hand, after reading what Mike said about what we believe about ourselves and our lives, if I continually believe my life is hard, or boring, or whatever one thinks of their life; then, my life will more than likely be hard, boring, or whatever. I would have a hard time accepting that my life is easy, if I thought it was hard.........possibly if I thought about other's lives (like seeing someone with a much harder life than mine), I might then change my mind and think my life was easy.....am I making sense?

I love the idea that I can choose to put my thoughts into 'check'.....the Bible admonishes us to 'take every thought into captivity'. Wisdom.

Now if I could really get a hold of what I think Mike is saying...if I start thinking that 'I want to be thin' (or whatever someone might want)...... I will become thin? is this how far we are going with this Thoughts Become Things?



DINA
2/3/02 6:08 PM		 14 out of 67

I love it! I am syrupy and attacking Ethogen at the same time....:)..... interesting polarities....lol. Well, I am happy that I drug someone out of the woodwork, please keep posting... the more minds the more ideas......
Please let me point out though that I am also expression an opinion just like E is expressing his.
And thankyou for expressing yours.
Love,
Dina



Eric
2/4/02 7:56 AM		 15 out of 67

Wow now we're engaging in thought here--to call something negative is a way to dismiss something.It is what we do to ourselves day in and day out when we feels those nasty twinges of anger,envy,inadequecy.By suppression of those "negative feeling states we actually weaken our energy ,without our "subconscious"(thanks or the word} energy available how can these so called thoughts be energized?What I'm doing on this board is serving a similiar function and to wish me away is a form of shutting down a very crucial part of understanding.,



Eric
2/4/02 8:11 AM		 16 out of 67

I do not totally disagree with mike's premise,but I do question his inability or unwillingness to defend his logic.I'm only asking for clarifications and there is only silence.To advance our understanding it is necessary to look at something from many sides.We are not talking about buying a car here(which i dare say would have us asking a lot more questions)we are delivering our mind and belief system itself ! learning is a 2 way street--no one is unaffected by the experiences S(he) engages in,including mike and his premise.Teachers must first of all be learners and So actually mike is must be willing to engage with us,hopefull not with preprinted recipes for untold material riches
DINA
2/4/02 9:44 AM		 17 out of 67

I understand you more clearly in your last post. Before you seemed to be shutting off ANYTHING Mike had to say.
A way of saying negative without using the word.
I agree that introspection is excessively important. However you must agree that sometimes we all get stuck.
Meaning our focus is only on those emotions we label negative and not on those that we label positive. I understand your philosopy somewhat, however I think that for me the middle part of two polarities is my goal. For example,Lust can be considered negative by some, and Love is considered positive. However living at either extreme is unfullfilling. Finding someone that you lust for and Love.. well that is bliss....lol.
The same with anger. At one end we have anger at the other we would have um...... how bout the word used earlier... syrupy.....lol..... either extreme is unfullfilling however if you express your anger in a clear concise way you are being assertive.
Is that what you mean when you say aknowleging negative emotions? or negaitivity.
I only branded your words because you were only expressing the "negative" ones. In you last post you expressed ideas that were wonderful to wander through.
I must admit that Mike has gone on vacation......lol...
however I am sure that we can all go on without him just fine....lol
Love,
Dina



MIKE
2/4/02 7:46 PM		 18 out of 67

Whoeee… great posts! Sorry E, I wasn’t ignoring you all, was out of town. Besides, my intent is to post every 2 or 3 days, time permitting, since I am doing this for fun, not profit ;) My posts should be fairly substantial, and I will always try to answer every pointed question (which I’ve done so far), and not leave you with a bunch of pre-written script.

Your first question in this thread was great, and I’ll try to knock it out of the park….

Why babies are affected by historical forces… well, all babies are… but they are not SUBJECT to historical forces, they CHOOSE THEM. Like a surfer might choose a particular wave. And while some surfers want big monsters to ride, others are more comfortable with baby white caps, and still others who prefer the “dangers” of surfing over the rocks. It’s a personal choice, and it would naturally depend on all the other experiences a particular entity might have which would lead them to their unique predispositions and leanings for adventure.

We do not come back on an agenda… or at predetermined intervals, every X years, and hope our cycle coincides with peace and prosperity. We can sit out a few years, or a few million years, or a few billion years… our choices are THAT fantastic. After all, you don’t think that civilization has only been going on a couple of thousand, or even a couple of million years, do you? Not only have there been other great civilizations such as Atlantis, which I believe lasted HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of years, but as I understand it (this stuff from readings I trust) there have been other major civilizations of equal greatness on this very earth that have all come and gone. THEN, there are probable lives and lifetimes, there are alternate realities, there are other dimensions, there are other planets, and it never ends!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT this is not the point of “living the life of your dreams”, it just helps answer another great question that again took us out of the box.

(CONTINUED)



MIKE
2/4/02 7:47 PM		 19 out of 67

(CONTINUED)

Another thought to help address this question, is to point out that life offers so much more than the simple, and comparatively few, pleasures that can be purchased with money. Meaning, as we choose lives, we do not do so based on our hopeful bank accounts, nor of how cushy and comfy they will be. In the truest sense of the word, we ARE adventurers, and life is an adventure! It’s SO romantic. Everything appears black and white, do or die, and our amnesia enables this. Because of it, we are forced to go all out, to give it our best, because it does seem so extraordinarily precious (and it is). The experience of time and space, combined with our partial, or total, amnesia, ENHANCES our emotional experiences, love and hate, passions and desperations, fears and glories. And these, our emotions, are the reward of every journey, though sometimes, not likely appreciated until the “game” is over and we can sort them all away (like when finishing a great book or movie, and we recount all that happened and say “wow” all over again).

And why would anyone want to experience “unpleasant emotions”? Because first of all, at deeper levels we know the truth… that such experiences are only temporary… miniscule compared to the eternity that lies before us, so heck, why not? Could you imagine never choosing to be placed into a situation/life that yielded envy, jealousy, hunger, etc.? Can you imagine living thousands of lives just being pampered, and loved, and spoon fed? Wouldn’t it get rather dull? Sure you could move on to other realities, but you’d begin wondering what that other stuff felt like… why it drove some to great heights of achievement, or to insanity. What would it do to you? You would WANT to know. You would want them in your portfolio… not so that they would cripple you, but so that they would enrich you ETERNALLY. So that you could then help others who, perhaps, floundered a bit longer than they had intended, called out for guidance. You want to KNOW it all experientially, we all do.

So you can see that the hand-to-mouth existence experienced by some, may, in the end, provide a much richer emotional experience, and be more educational and “romantic”, than a life lived in the lap of luxury. It may enhance certain bonds between struggling family members, or it may help uncover a “resourcefulness of thought” that couldn’t otherwise be tapped. The list of potential “perks” from any life choice is infinite – whether its one facing hardship, or luxury – and since we get to live again and again, we end up trying it all.



MIKE
2/4/02 8:06 PM		 20 out of 67

EVITA About children/people not being educated or mature enough to choose what they want, and thus what to think. This is a good question, and you’re right, they don’t, so they flounder, but this is OK too. Floundering is part of growing up, and it is a state of being nevertheless, with its own lessons and experiences, that say, a Tiger Woods will never get to experience (this time). In choosing our parents and our lives and our neighborhoods and our home town (all one big decision) we know of the likelihood’s for floundering, of being given direction, or being neglected, and we choose whichever will serve our own unique needs that time around.

About our subconscious … First, these are not as “unconscious” as we think, Second, by training ourselves we can uncover the rest of them, and Third, MOST IMPORTANTLY, our subconscious thoughts follow, NOT give rise to, our conscious thoughts. I think, conventionally, this is a most misunderstood arena, and people too often blame the “unconscious” part of them, and consider it to be mysterious, uncharted, demon-plagued territory – none of which is true.



MIKE
2/4/02 8:29 PM		 21 out of 67

Charity2u A man in prison would be there first because of his thoughts and beliefs about his crime and his thoughts about “deserving” to be punished – he’d be fulfilling his own prophecies. Could he change his thinking enough to undo it? In some esoteric ways, I believe he could end this incarnation (life), and move on, or kind of switch tracks to another alternate reality in which he is still himself, though where he made other choices, while to us, he would pass away from some suitable cause that we could believe in. But we really aren’t talking about this kind of reality manipulation, nor shall we talk about flying without wings, or walking on water, though all are viable thanks to the EXTRAORDINARY power of our thoughts.

To answer your other question, YES, you can lose weight be thinking thin! Yes, you can acquire wealth by thinking of abundance. But to answer your next question… YES thoughts alone could do it, BUT that does not mean you can sit around your house all day and just think without action. Action is one of the scripts I will soon post from, but basically, our actions ARE our thoughts in motion. So if you aren’t acting, you aren’t thinking. And if you’re thinking that you are going to lose weight, or manifest wealth without taking some actions (though the more enlightened the less, to nill, actions would be required), then really your thoughts are not incongruence with one anther, because you can NOT (yet) be believing that you don’t have to do something, and so that IS also your reality.

The good news, is that DOING SOMETHING, is fun, easy, and part of being an Adventurer, and it does not have to be painful, unpleasant, stressful or boring. Actually, ideally, the shortest distance between what you want and where you now are, would involve doing what you would truly MOST LOVE DOING! Whoohoo! Follow your bliss to health and prosperity, it’s the name of the game.

That's all for tonight... can't get to the other threads... but in these 3 replies I've given hours... and loved every second of it...

See you all tomorrow or Wed... AND AS WISE AS MANY HERE ARE... keep up the posts... all of them!

Tallyho,



MIKE
2/4/02 8:38 PM		 22 out of 67

Whoaaaaaaahhhhhhhh - in post 21 I was not suggesting suicide!! I hope that wasn't misunderstood! I meant that if, at his deepest levels of being, via his complete Being or Entity, there was realization that his Adventure/Purpose had indeed ended because of a massive switch in beliefs and thoughts, then his overall BEING might change tracks or end the incarnation.

Suicide is the forcible end of an Adventure that HAD NOT finished. And then, the most unfortunate loss is in the rare, and un-duplicatable circumstances, the loss of a priceless opportunity for growth and expression (not because we can't come back, but because we can't come back under the exact same circumstances).

Like it says in ILLUSIONS (by Bach), something like "if you're still here, you're not done."



Eric
2/5/02 7:56 AM		 23 out of 67

glad you understand my philosophy d.,because I do not----I am just a curious participant in a world that appears beyond explanation in many ways ,I do enjoy poking the "stuff "of this so called reality to try and examine the contents--kind of a scientific method but without a preplanned subject of inquiry and definitely unmotivated by profit.Now ,mike you are the one who brought up the world is flat-----so please explain why centuries of belief by millions of ppl did change the shape of the earth? or any other teacher/learners out there--lets examine this--and any other seemingly and possibly actually preposterous ideas



Eric
2/5/02 8:11 AM		 24 out of 67

for example we have seen lately that many prisoners have been incarcerated wrongly,some even executed.Mikes idea it is because of their thoughts,I think there is strong evidence that is actually becuz of the thoughts of other ppl,thoughts of prejudice and greed.,and more importantly actions of greed and prejudice.From the accounts these men have shared--they most fervently desired to return to freedom and justice,yet there they were in jail.Now Mike states it is because of this agreement they made " ahead of time"--doesn't that argument suppose that we too, have agreements made ahead of time which no matter what we most fervently wish we must live out,, Can' we have it both ways mike,say that it is prearranged and also that it can be changed at a moments notice



DINA
2/5/02 9:40 AM		 25 out of 67

Correction...... put your fur down...
I said...... I THINK I UNDERSTAND YOUR PHILOSOPHY SOMEWHAT..........
Very different from what you thought I said....
Love,
Dina



CATHY
2/5/02 1:23 PM		 26 out of 67

in other words,can our supposed blueprints be changed if were not comfortable with circumstances that we often have to deal with?our greatest responsibility is to ourselves.there is a cause and effect that applies to everything.we are responsible for absolutely everything that we create in life.hence(the ripple effect).even from our childhood.our second greatest responsibility is to those around us.these are in line with what Christ set into motion by his commandments.to love the lord with all of your heart,mind and soul,and strength,and to love your neighbor as yourself.to begin there has to be a great deal of soul searching.to look within.discover who you are as a human being.when you have discovered who you are then you will have discovered what you have within yourself.and what you have and are is what you will offer to others.love is constantly giving,and expanding.yes you can alter any process that you are involved in.and everyone else has the same ability.there is also an ability to (be strong).to be a safety net for the times when things go wrong.we all have this ability too.it would be helpful to broaden our perspectives on possible solution.and ask ourselves,what can i do to be the difference that God makes? the more that open up, the stronger the safety net,the greater the possibilities.catherine



LUCY
2/5/02 6:32 PM		 27 out of 67

I Like the Idea, "What can I DO to BE the differance God makes." It inplys Active Participation in the Solution and less agreement with the problem.I also enjoy playing with the impossible or "seemingly preposterious Ideas" theorys...The notion of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...or the positive side of this equasion is being in the right place at the right time...And meeting the right person...It has been said that fate and chance happens to all. WE must be willing to do and be whatever it is we are...I have in the far past been an alcholic and pothead...I have associated with those that, If I had remained in their group,I would have wound up in jail or prison...Hummmm, It seems I took another road and lost contact with those people as well....It was a learning experience it spent 10 years or more of my life doing this and thousands of dollars...There are no could ofs...and should ofs in life...deal with it.There is what IS! And its a choice.
Lucky people wake up and make good choices, unlucky ones....Oh well you know...Anger, bitterness, wrath breed what? Love, peace, and Harmony breed what? Its as old as cause and effect with alittle common sense thrown in for good measure...lol ITs A LAW of the universe to reap what you sow. Its Gods choice that all Souls will Grow...Whatever it takes... thats the bottom line In Getting what you want and You are Spirit and Soul in a physical Body...These attributes of the self are in more control that one is aware usually unless they are in line with their Higher selves.Ultimately, Its a set up from the beginning we have to participate or die and thats no way out either...Its a guarantee to return to try again...I have grow so far as to refuse to participate in negative play of any kind.My new script reads, "I am Spirit...Know truth and give love"
Everyone and everything is alive and apart of Gods creation as I...I can change no one or thing except my self...My preception of events, my feelings, my actions and attitude are ALL in my control. If I choose to give my power away I can believe an illusion that someone or something made me do it or say it or be what? see....I have overcome my greatest adversary, myself and won.
Break it down to basics...and apply additude to change.



DINA
2/5/02 11:50 PM		 28 out of 67

Lovespirit,
You spoke human beautifully!
Love you!
Dina



MIKE
2/6/02 4:23 PM		 29 out of 67

E, you asked…. Mike you are the one who brought up the world is flat-----so please explain why centuries of belief by millions of ppl did change the shape of the earth?

Ugh… good question, very good… you’re challenging me E! OK… because there are certain fundamental principles, or laws, or characteristics of life that we all choose to agree upon ahead of time, through mass thoughts and beliefs, to be “givens”, and in choosing so, they create THE STAGE we get to play out our lives upon. There are many other examples of this, like the chemical composition of our bodies, the air, the behaviors of molecules, how elements interact, etc. But such choices are extremely few, and in no way interfere with the profound and awesome freedoms we still possess to shape the direction of our own lives, our own joys, and our own successes. Because of such agreements, we are not likely to flatten the earth, nor decide to grow a few more inches at age 40, nor grossly manipulate matter in fashions that would spoil THE STAGE (the givens) for ourselves or others, but still, none of these parameters interfere with our abilities to choose happiness.

Also, I think there’s a difference between being ignorant of certain things, like the earth being round since the beginning of time, as compared to willfully dealing with “facts” you want to change. For instance, it’s not as if people knew the earth was round, but have striven for millions of years to make it flatten out with their thoughts… in which case, they may well have succeed by now, at least in a sense, perhaps by creating a new one… ala a flat space station the size of Delaware, among other possibilities.

Finally, our thoughts do NOT begin on the day we are born… so to a degree we must also take into account those thoughts of ours that existed pre-birth. And during pre-birth, WE ALL said to ourselves something like this, “hmmmm… let’s see, where can I learn about love, self respect, hate, jealousy, envy, passion, etc. (whatever it was we wanted to learn about), and where can I stretch my imaginative muscles so as to dream, create and apply myself, and where can I incarnate to be with Bill, Mary, Amanda, and Sue (my dearest friends from other realities who I often learn well with)? Ah-ha… lookey here, a beautiful little round, self-sustaining planet called earth (which, incidentally, was created by the mass thoughts of other Beings of Light (like us), pre-time, if not by ourselves).” And looking closer at this planet you might notice that the mass beliefs of the times, say during the 21st century, the “stuff” and issues they were headed into, actually suited your own needs and those of your friends. And in you dove. So, you found a ROUND little planet that had all the stuff you wanted, a stage so to speak, and now you’re here. You “bought” into the planet as is, its features and characteristics, its shape and environment, before you sprouted legs, and sprouting such legs, you then became a co-creator, at deeper levels than you are now aware, but changing its shape was never on your agenda, nor did you ever give it any thought… you (we) just ignorantly assumed all along that it was flat.



MIKE
2/6/02 4:40 PM		 30 out of 67

About prisoners… and for ALL OF US. The agreements made ahead of time are part of an unending agreement, so yes, we do have it both ways, earlier agreements are made, but with few exceptions, like the shape of our planet, anyone can change their mind and their agreements. NOTHING is predetermined… though there are OFTEN very strongly likelihood’s for our IMMEDIATE futures based upon the leanings and tendencies in our own most recent thoughts, and from those thoughts in the mass population. But as I said days ago, we are not at the mercy of mass thinking… because we have already, by choosing to be born into the times we chose, have “bought into” the various possibilities that we KNEW might exist. We choose so, because their beliefs suited us and our own needs. And as we grow older, if the thoughts of those immediately around us change and do not suit us, either we, or they, move on so that we won’t interfere with one another.

So why can’t someone change their agreement, and spring themselves from jail? I already answered that one (go a few posts back).



MIKE
2/6/02 4:46 PM		 31 out of 67

LUCY: "What can I DO to BE the differance God makes."

This is a great thought for the obvious reasons, but also because it presumes that "God" works within us (in fact, is us), and that individually, not only can we make a difference in the world (and for ourselves), but WE can decide how. That's POWER and FREEDOM, and we all have both.



Eric
2/7/02 12:36 AM		 32 out of 67

basically your premise rests very heavily on "supernatural" beliefs(that there are beings of light ,prebirth agreements,agerrements between masses of ppl to set agreed upon stages,,unlimited possibilities despite famines and thousands of years of history) I mean once we get into the "supernatural" you can pull out kryptonite angels,giraffe headed cactus and anything you need to give your idea the cohesion it doesn't have.And nobody can contradict you --becuse its really about giving ppl something they desperately want to believe---that they don't have to do anything ,they just think it and it appears.OH,with a few secret techniques that only you have.So if you gave these innocent men who were jailed for murder this course they could have been freed within days,instead of the years it took?providing they just Believed in the right way.It makes it so much easier to have no responsibility in life for anything other than to sit and believe something.Why bother doing anything at all,if you're hungry just believe you're full And to think all that time I've wasted cooking

Sammy
2/7/02 6:50 PM		 33 out of 67


Eric:

I agree. There's not a shred of evidence suggesting our consciousness exists either before our lives or afterwards - it's a belief. To me what Mike has said so far is a mixture of wisdom and wind. I can understand the value of "believing" in oneself and one's ideals. I can appreciate the merit in what Jung called individuation. That meaning of the word "belief" is different altogether, for instance, from "believing" that we were conscious before birth and given instructions prior to recycling, or that an omnipotent deity exists who dishes out rewards and punishments.

These latter may or may not be "true", but if they turn out to contradict scientific observation or verifiable fact then they become "myths". I suppose I could meditate until I convinced myself that the cat turd on the back lawn was in fact a gentian violet. While saying much for my brain's internal capability, the turd is still a turd and not a flower.



LUCY
2/7/02 8:30 PM		 34 out of 67

Knowledge is power....yet imagination is more powerful than knowledge...For without it we wither and die. There are many ways that individuals and cultures can and do, lose thier souls. TO our peril, we forget that the gold is in hanf. We forget that THERE IS A HIDDEN DOOR A SECRET ROOM IN ALL OUR LIVES. The force behind myths, fairytales, parables, and soulful travel stories reveals the myraid ways THE SACRED BREAKS THROUGH THE RESISTANCE AND SHINES FORTH INTO OUR WORLD.Having found the peace that passes understanding...why change? To continue learning and growing and applying the lessons learned...Love, peace, and harmony to all....blessed be...eternally! Share it!



CATHY
2/7/02 11:43 PM		 35 out of 67

LUCY,you are a beautiful person.that is my opinion.Sammy,i don't believe exactly that God dishes out rewards or punishments.i believe that we are judges of ourselves.i see this in oneness with God and in God's oneness with me.i have never felt judged by God ever.



MIKE
2/8/02 6:03 PM		 36 out of 67

Yes, it IS all Supernatural, but PROFOUNDLY on the OBJECTIVE side with VERY, VERY FEW subtle, yet almighty, principles that exists FROM WHICH we DO, already, create our lives. I’m not making them up to answer your questions, much of what I say has been already said, verbatim, by seers, prophets, and speakers since the beginning of time… Thoreau, Emerson, Socrates, Plato, Jesus, Buddha, and COUNTLESS OTHERS.

As I said, our beliefs limit what we can see, and therefore what we can deduce, and this is can be seen in your comment that you find “not a shred of evidence that our consciousness exists either before our lives or afterwards”. For many, and I’m one, that comment is just as mind-blowing-ly “fantastic”, as you must find my views. For example… there are thousands of instances of people going into a hypnotic trance and being taken to former lives, and sometimes verifiably explaining things that could not otherwise be explained. There are COUNTLESS people who have had near death experiences, when clearly their thoughts and personalities carried on after they were pronounced clinically dead… for up to a half hour… (and most of their stories are extremely similar, though tailored to their own lives). Besides these oddities, there are people who, while in hypnotic trance, could suddenly speak languages there were never exposed to. Besides these, there are innumerable examples of people’s consciousness leaving their bodies (out of body experiences) from which they could then accurately and verifiably report on things they saw at other locations, involving other people, that were great distances from their bodies – such examples prove that consciousness exists independent of the body.. and if it does, surely will last beyond it at physical death.

And what of our night time dreams? We’ve all had experiences that were SO REAL that we’ve woken up in cold sweats and racing hearts. JUST IMAGINATION, or perhaps, do we leave our bodies at night and enter dream worlds THAT WE CREATE, just as surely as we create our physical experiences?

And what of the many women (and men too) who through EXTREMELY stressful and abused childhoods develop multiple personalities… MANY OF WHOM (within the same person) require different strength reading glasses, medications, and other physical adjustments, depending upon which personality is occupying the body! Don’t these cases reflect that the personality essence exists independently of the body? That the body is an instrument of consciousness, not the other way around.

And this stuff is just off cuff right now… there are endless examples, or proof, of situations that exist that point to consciousness existing without the body… AND you both, like virtually everyone, have probably had your own share of unexplainable experiences too… thinking of someone when the phone rings, and it's them, feeling urged by your heart and soul to do something, that only later becomes obvious as to why, a few precognitive dreams, etc.

And there are just as many “proofs” for everything else I’ve been saying, and will say. The proof is EVERYWHERE. It’s so obvious!!! But unless you’re open to new possibilities, you will rationalize it all away and say it is meaningless…just like those who said there is no proof we can fly, or that the earth is round, or who probably thinks that thoughts aren’t real because you can’t see them.

Another great quote from Richard Bach (from “There’s No Such Place As Faraway”) is, “That not being known, does not stop the truth from being true.”



Eric
2/9/02 9:13 AM		 37 out of 67

the fact that human consciousness has many levels does prove "beings of light" nor a god that hands out rewards and punishments NOR prebirth agreements.To use buddha as a being to promote increased desires seems most disgusting,in fact his whole philosophy is away from materialism and self gratification and towards compassion as was jesus'



CATHY
2/9/02 10:48 AM		 38 out of 67

the reason that we are taught to pull from materialism,is that doubt,fear,and worry are all parts of the lower self.people have an innate ability to rarely look beyond the physical need to find the greater self.all fingers pointing to the spiritual.Jesus was and is a spiritual master,teacher,Son of God,teaching spiritual things pertaning to God.in other words when materialism,doubts,and whatever keep you from the greater truth then it becomes (wrong),or unnessary.the same can be true in seeking God.sometimes we can get so wrapped up in the seeking that we never see the truth when it is right there all the time.i heard it said once that whatever you put between you and God is what keeps you from him.i love this saying because it implicates anything or everything without judging anything.not that materialism is (evil) just that the greater is present.kind of like a perfect diamond being displayed on a black velvet background.catherine



Eric
2/10/02 5:24 AM		 39 out of 67

Personally i think to divide into sacred and profane is counterproductive.After all where do we draw the line?Doubt,fear and worry exist the same way the spiritual exists in us.We can pay attention to the one we choose.Materially we exist as blood and bones,without them we couldn't express the spiritual.-------I'm not quite sure what you mean by what you put between you and god--could you explain that more?



Sammy
2/10/02 6:35 PM		 40 out of 67


Mike:

I have no difficulty enjoying mystical experience without attempting to attribute it to weird and wonderful suppositions about reincarnation, astral travel, heaven and hell or pixies in the garden. I know about mystical experience, dreams, "psychic" occurrences and so on because I have them - in abundance - they are the stuff of inspiration for my art. In many ways they make life worthwhile. What I don't find necessary is to leap into making wholesale unprovable pseudo-scientific assumptions based on them. I prefer the quiet, and in your eyes probably plodding, approach of meditation and careful scientific enquiry in the here and now.

Surely clutching hold of arbitrary beliefs and myths, however appealing, is not how understanding and civilisation have progressed. Indeed, one could construct a strong case against this human desire for certainty at all costs. Huxley, Bronowski and Koestler have in fact already expressed this notion in various works. I agree with them.

Eric:

I like the way you think. I too find compassion more important than belief.



Eric
2/11/02 10:08 AM		 41 out of 67

I like the fact that this forum allows us to examine these beliefs at our own pace,Of course I have encountered these ideas before,however group pressure tends to muffle the expressions of any doubt and so The bridge to how these ideas intersect with the whole other paradigm of historical reality as we know it never gets constructed.There must be a way beyond just accept it or get out---



MIKE
2/11/02 12:26 PM		 42 out of 67

The comments about Buddha were specifically about the thoughts of consciousness surviving death, as was most of that discussion.

**

Compassion and love are paramount, but again, they are not mutually exclusive to living the life of our dreams. The old schools of thought, as passed down by many religions, imply that we must sacrifice, do without, and suffer if we are truly to know God, and sadly, this kind of mistaken thinking still pervades the thoughts of many… and thus prevents them from entertaining thoughts of (and thus experiencing) the physical abundance, health and harmony we are all capable of achieving.

**

For YOU, my assertions are “improvable pseudo-scientific assumptions”… to me, and lots others, the proof is EVERYWHERE. Our lives are the ultimate testimonial. In the lives of the people YOU KNOW (without again hauling us all over to Ethiopia, or some penitentiary (I’ve already handily addressed them) look at your friends who are wealthy, look at your friends who are poor, look at your friends who are healthy, look at your friends who are sick, and see how their thinking and attitudes have shaped their lives. They get what they dwell upon, however relying old patterns and old thinking to interpret these results, IT APPEARS the other way around. It appears that they think AS A REACTION TO LIFE, but being astute, you can EASILY see that it works the other way around.



LUCY
2/11/02 8:48 PM		 43 out of 67

I just learned that to sacrifice means to make sacred.
Unlike to degrade, it requires uplifting and invoking a spirit of respect and honor toward all life. Until an individual is ready to accept the reality of all thoughts and words producing effects and concequences we will tend to blame fate, chance, or other people for the circumstances in our lifes. Its always easyer to doubt than to believe. So, I choose to infuse the higher thoughts and beliefs into my mind that have been voiced and demonstrated as possible by brilliant minds throughout history, studying and applying these principles, of a cource in miracles, make my miracle mindfulness complete and the effectual results beyond most individuals comprehension.My experience is my own proof that we become what we most desire to be or dwell upon.Let the blessings be to those that seek the truth and believe in the power of the universe to produce in accord to our belief.All things are possible.



DINA
2/11/02 10:39 PM		 44 out of 67

Mike....
You are doing great.....lol......
I would love for you to have the freedom to go back to the BASIC concept of relating how we think relates to our enviorment and what we SEE. How our attitude towards ourselves reflects what we see in others...
That without the power of the mind to think positive, it is impossible for the human body to perform positive acts, and speak positive words... and how this "being positive" does not translate into "selfishness".
If we could get off this track of PROVING your ideas instead of SHARING your ideas and allowing all to make individual decisions it would be nice.
This is starting to seem like a trial instead of a discussion..
I have been following along, although I have not posted lately. I did not want to interrupt any more than I already had.....
I feel though that Ethogen, and some of the others have had enough time to pick apart the ideas presented and decide that they are not for them. Now if we could get back to the original discussion it would be appreciated.
Thankyou,
Dina



MIKE
2/13/02 4:53 PM		 45 out of 67

Dina:
“The BASIC concept… “ The basic concept is wonderfully simple… and to state is as the immovable principle I believe it is, as a LAW of nature with the rigidity and predictable of gravity… “THOUGHTS BECOME THINGS”. Our thoughts become the things AND EVENTS of our lives, both individually, and collectively.

Why collectively? Because we’ve chosen the same stage to play out our experiences and manifestations.

Does this mean we’re subject to the affects of other people’s thoughts? Yes and no. Yes, to the degree that mass conditions affect the entire stage… the climate (the weather), the economy, natural disasters (and wonders), etc. but even in these situations, we still have our own psychological (mental) mixes that we add to the collective “pot”. No, because such mass affects on our private lives RARELY infringe on our own sovereign abilities to craft our own destinies WITHIN the mass climate. For instance, our own health, wealth and harmonies can usually be achieved in spite of the weather, the economy (many millionaires are born during recessions), wars, or natural disasters. In the extremely rare case (relatively) where someone’s life, and home for instance, might be turned upside-down by, say, a hurricane… this can only happen with their own tacit approval and involvement… via their own thought processes… dating back to when they chose to buy such a home, in such an area where such possibilities existed, and their decisions (plural) that lead to the upending would be reflective of their own creativity playing off a mass event. They would not be victims then.

Why would someone want a natural disaster to rip their life apart? There would never be any one reason. There are as many reasons as there are people who have suffered such a problem… but how about… they wanted to place themselves in a situation where it would finally dawn on them how precious life was, OR maybe, they love drama (getting huge attention for the perils they braved, maybe even national attention), OR maybe, they simply LOVE the excitement of living on the “edge” (like storm chasers do), OR maybe, they wanted to be pushed to an emotional extreme so as to tap into strengths of theirs that heretofore they hadn’t uncovered… or maybe a mixture of several of these, etc.

***

About “what we see”: We see through the lenses of our beliefs, and when it comes to ourselves, we often fail to understand our beliefs, even then, are simply opinions, but view them as facts of life. If we find ourselves to have certain attributes, for instances, we are inclined to be generous, inclined to tell fudge the truth, inclined to enjoy watching TV, whatever, then we think these opinions are simply observations of human nature (rather than understanding it is simply our own unique nature), and so we

We see in others, what we have found in ourselves – both good and bad… so generally, our perceptions of others are limited accordingly. Further, we are often blind to the “virtues” possessed by people that “exceed” our own, simply because not having “arrived” there yet ourselves, we cannot even comprehend that there is even a “there”. Fortunately, when we’re in a seeking or questioning mode, bridges are made and comprehensions expand.

And lastly, “likes do attract”. We’re all aware, at deeper levels, of who else is “out there”, and when there aren’t conflicting beliefs, people of a similar mindsets are drawn together through circumstances, coincidences and accidents. Similarly, knowing who else is out there, we maneuver in ways that will bring people into our “spheres of existence” who have lessons to teach us. Not that such teachers are necessarily wise, or wiser than us, but because our interactions with them will likely yield EXPERIENCES we can learn from.

***



MIKE
2/13/02 5:33 PM		 46 out of 67

Dina (con’t):

About the power to think “positive”. Well, “positive” is a judgment, but I know what you mean.

NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING can ever happen in the physical that doesn’t first happen in thought (in spirit). Not ever. Not words, not actions, not experiences, nor “things”. So whether it is a “positive” experience, or otherwise, it must first be entertained imaginatively for it to manifest.

From the script, “The second major obstacle likely preventing you from fully understanding that your thoughts becoming things, is that throughout your life there’ve been UNEXPECTED things that you DID get, and experiences you’ve had, some pleasant, others not, that you NEVER EVER thought about ahead of time! Well if thoughts become things Mike Dooley, whose thoughts were those?

“To understand this, you have to realize that whenever you think a new thought, it has to deal with where you are in your life, in order to get you where your new thinking lies. And in getting you from point A to point B, you’ll have to be drawn through new territory. Just like when you get in your car and drive from Orlando to Miami, you don’t know what the traffic will be like, where the highway will be under construction, what detours may exist, or where you’ll stop for a rest or food, but all these points in your journey will be necessary in order to get you to your destination. And the same kind of journey occurs when you think new thoughts…

“For example, let’s say that you do have some new thoughts and that they are about more love, joy and laughter coming into your life. Well in order to get more of anything, or less of anything into your life, in order to affect any kind of change in your life, your thoughts will need to take you on a journey through time and space, the material world (which is already a collective thought production), so that circumstances can exist for the fruition of your dreams…. and, HOW might your thoughts do this? Well, ACCIDENTALLY you may bump into a long lost friend whom you haven’t seen for years, renew the friendship, which in turn branches into many more friendships, and you’re off! or COINCIDENTALLY you may find a stray dog or cat… that you adopt, and see that it adds immeasurable to the joy in your life for years to come, OR heaven forbid, through a string of “misfortunes” you may be forced to relocate to an entirely new town… that you subsequently LOVE.

“You see, whenever something unexpected falls onto our path, it’s often a stepping stone on a journey to a “place” that we have been thinking about, because in time and space, as you well know, there are no accidents, and there are no coincidences, and it’s because, you make your own reality by the thoughts that you think.”



MIKE
2/13/02 5:36 PM		 47 out of 67

ABOUT “SELFISHNESS”...

Since we ALL have been given dominion over the things and events of our own lives through the power of thought and the gift of freewill… then NO ONE ELSE’S HAPPINESS depends on anyone else. We are all wholly and entirely responsible for our own happiness.

So now, what is “selfishness”? Isn’t it generally the view that someone is striving for personally gain, at the expense of another? Well, if we all have the same powers of manifestation, can ANYTHING be the expense of another? For instance, nothing I could ever do for myself could really dim your light, your sovereignty, or your divine power to achieve your own happiness (unless you choose to believe that your happiness must come from me and my actions/decisions/choices).

{Now some in the audience might say, “if you kill someone for your own personal gain, you’d be extinguishing their light”, or come up with a variety of scenarios where it might appear that my actions could infringe upon another, but this again takes us outside of the box, venturing into the VICTIMS arena, and more… if anyone has a specific question, please ask it, but first read my other posts, and first ask yourself if the question applies to YOU living the life of YOUR dreams}

I am NOT implying that people should live their lives WITHOUT regard for others, BUT, it is so sadly and commonly assumed that following one’s own dreams is selfish, and even reckless behavior, whereas the truth of the situation, is that for anyone to really “make a mark in the world”, to be effective at what they do, THEY HAVE TO be operating within the boundaries of what THEY WANT TO DO. Otherwise regret and resentment set in, anger and jealousy, and the bitterness of their “selfless” efforts will destroy the stew.
To borrow from some more script because it is so applicable here:
Dreams could only ever be considered selfish if you believe in scarcity and lack, or only if you believe that in order for you to receive something, others must go without, but these kind of believes are impossible if truly understand that YOU are a Being of Light, and that the props in your life are merely illusions. Your dreams come from the INFINITE, and only by pursuing them with abandon can you then give to the world, all that you have to give to the world. By remaining true to your own “selfish” DESIRES.
Could Thomas Edison, for example, have tended to the down trodden as did Mother Theresa? Could Albert Einstein have preached salvation as did Martin Luther King, Jr.? Could Abraham Lincoln have built cars like Henry Ford? NO. You know who these people are because they followed their own passions, their own inborn leanings, and their own inner voices. The irony here though, with regard to the thought that our dreams are selfish, is that always, the masses sometimes even for generations, benefit from the individual who insists on marching to the beat of their own drummer, to the divinely selfish soul.
Both our dreams and desires are as UNIQUE AS OUR FINGER PRINTS… and we’re endowed with them based on each of our own unique, spiritual quests in life. We have different leanings, inclinations and aptitudes for a reason… and it’s because the directions they send us in will maximize different lessons we’ve set out to learn. We’re not all born wanting to be doctors, we’re not all born wanting to beautiful, and hard as this may seem to believe, we’re not all born wanting to easy, cushy lives… Remember life IS an Adventure, that’s what makes it exciting, and just like in choosing the Adventures we take for our vacations, no 2 people want the exact same thing… some prefer to relax and do nothing, here or there, while others prefer risks and challenges to varying degrees.



DINA
2/14/02 9:53 AM		 48 out of 67

Many "help" groups have the 12 step program....
The first "law" you are supposed to follow is to accept that you do not have contoll over your life and to give that controll to "a higher Power".
I agree that this "power" you speak of does indeed exist. However, you have to ask yourself seriously if everyone is ready for it. Many of us spend our lives manifesting our fears, since that is where our attention lies. And it takes time, self reflection, and allot of will power to change... but we still have these fears that pop in and out of our minds. Without giving up controll to God we usually end up on one hell of a roller coaster ride. Where does a "higher Power" come into play in your ideas? Or does it?
You argue that there is no real negativity, but I assure you there is. There is Fear, Hate, Malice, Confusion, resistance to Trust, power, and greed. This negativity blocks humans from realizing what their TRUE dreams are, and often what their REAL thoughts are.
What you are speaking of is an ideal. Indeed heaven on earth. We are not there yet, as we are not all capable of it. You bring up wonderful role models.... what about Hitler.... he is a perfect example of tapping into this "force" before he was ready. We as humans did learn a huge lesson in this, however, I am not sure that it was OUR intention...
The real truth is that we manifest our nightmares as well as our dreams, because we are "young". I am not sure that it is right and good for anyone to understand the process before they are ready... at which time it is revealed to them naturally. The same way you and I learned it. Neither of us, or others I know learned this in a book.
I believe that this ties in significantly with forced Kundalini experiences..... When you force start the "lower powers" without having a higher power regulate it, many participants suffer needlessly.
DINA
2/14/02 10:02 AM		 49 out of 67

Religions all over the world have always been aware of this process.. However it was a heavily guarded secret and initiates had to under go very deep self reflection, lasting years, before the learned " the secret". Even then it was not mapped out for them in black and white. It was still a natually occuring phenonema when the person learned when ready. The power was realized when the person was mature enough not to "need" it.
What are your thoughts on this?
Love,
Dina



MIKE
2/15/02 6:51 PM		 50 out of 67

More great thoughts…

About the 12 Point programs - I don't think anyone can argue with the successes of these programs, they have helped so many people, but these programs are "programs". So it's not really reasonable to take one of the underpinnings of their work and look at it alone, like the powerless concept. It makes sense in the context of everything else their program offers, and it makes sense given their typical audience member, but it shouldn't be taken out of context.

On the other hand, I'M SURE a new program could be invented for dealing with addictions that would affirm everyone's power, but to my knowledge it hasn't been created yet.

***

About the Higher Power within us all…You suggest considering whether people are really ready for it. Well, whether they are ready or not, its theirs and its undeniable. It doesn’t activate once we reach a certain spiritual understanding of life, it is activated the day we’re born (actually, long before that), and as you pointed out, it is often used for far less worthwhile ambitions than living the life of one’s dreams… My ambition then, is to help people wake up from their slumber and realize the power they are ALREADY welding, and through an understanding of this power, and the magical Universe they live in, begin redirecting it to more fulfilling goals.

***



MIKE
2/15/02 6:52 PM		 51 out of 67

About the Higher Power, as in God, and turning things over to “Her”. This is very tricky to talk about because many of these words and ideas are loaded into people’s minds one way or another, as beliefs, but anyway. My view is that “long ago”, “God” actually turned things over to us!! More accurately, by Her looking within, time was born, and so were new perspectives for God to view reality… and each of these perspectives became one of us. We are totally 100% God. We ARE God. That doesn’t mean that God isn’t a lot more than we are, but it does mean that nothing about us is anything less than God.

So for us to now “turn things over to God”… kind of defeats the purpose of us being here as God! The real issue, and I think this may be what you were getting at, is that if people think that just their little physical body, and that their little ego is God… then they may be totally blind to the fact that THEY are SO MUCH MORE than what they think, than what their physical senses show them, effectively SHUTTING OFF insights and comprehensions that could literally make their flow effortlessly.

To give an excellent example that plays itself out to some degree in most all of our lives…… because life is NOT as it appears (to our physical senses), people mistakenly think that THEY must work out all the details to their problems, that THEY must manipulate time and space to achieve their dreams, meet the right people at the right times, and that THEY must turn over every stone, knock on every door and basically work their ass off to get anything done… BUT remembering the divinity that lies within us all, and our connectedness to the Universe (to all things time and space, AND BEYOND), in other words, remembering GOD!! (your point), then we can turn over the madness and the details to Her, and let the Universe coordinate the circumstances, accidents and coincidences of our lives that will yield what we have been focusing on.

I hope I’m not losing anyone here… but life, in a nutshell operates like this: We (as God fragments) focus or think on anything… and then the Universe (or God) via the principle of thought becoming things, delivers it, through ITS manipulation of the physical world. We pick the goal, the Universe picks the path. And they way to really foul this system up, is for us to pick the goal… and then insist through our ignorance that it come from a certain path. For instance “I want love and romance… AND I WANT IT FROM CAROL SMITH!” Not how it works… if I want love and romance… that is what I focus on, turning the details over to…… the greater reality of which I spring from, or The Universe, or God, or MY GREATER SELF! See the syntax issue. Turning it over to God is the far more accepted way of looking at the fulfillment of a wish in society, but to me, this kind of inference of God implies that God is independent of us, and this is less true than saying it is OURSELVES who create the magic (because we really do, in a deeper sense, whereas GOD has never existed independently of us).



MIKE
2/15/02 6:52 PM		 52 out of 67

You said I argue that there is no negativity. I don’t know why you would think that. Negativity is EVERYWHERE, but I would argue t